Jesus Christ as God and Pre-existing

Jesus Christ as God and Pre-existing:

In response to arguments and dialog with those who believe there is only one God being in existence, this discussion is presented below with comments. In order to entertain the "One God" concept as being taught by some, we have to address the following scriptures that add up to just one conclusion: That these scriptures clearly refer to a being that had pre-existence to His human birth as the Word, and became our savior. This isn't close to all the references we could bring up on this topic but it certainly holds a lot of weight for Christ being God and eternally existing with the Father.

If a reasonable answer can be scripturally given to explain these scriptures and what is being said, then dialog can continue.

John 1:1-4 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. :10-14 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Comments: Why go to this great length of double speak to talk about just one being? Why even mention that "without Him nothing was made that was made?" How else could anything be made if there is just one being called God? World made THROUGH him...? The word became flesh... ONLY begotten. Notice vs :2... He (the same) was in the beginning with God...?

It takes a great deal of manipulation of thought to exclude the fact that this is referring to a separate thought/concept apart from God. Why delineate a difference between God, His word, and then mention multiple places that this "word" is what did the creating, apart from God?

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Hebrews 1:2 "Has in these last days spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;"

Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things.;"

Comment: Through whom He (Father) made the worlds... The Father created the universe THROUGH "WHOM" ... whom indicates another entity, not just words. How could the Father create the whole universe through Jesus Christ if He hadn't yet been created?

(It is true that the words "through Jesus Christ" are not in the original, so we have to take the context of this scripture... "through whom..." indicating Christ, which is in keeping with the added text, and also continue to look at others scriptures to find our answers).

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Comment: Us...Our... plural... indicating more than one...

God is saying that the rest of His created beings were going to help in the creation of all that is? Do you really believe that? That is a major stretch of scripture. Only God can create. What makes more sense... God used "Us" and "OUR" as part of angels, or to mean let "US," as the Family of God, create... through the "word" who is part of "Us"? Such arguments wouldn't hold up in a secular court, let alone in God's court. Also, whose image are we created in? Angels? NO! We are created in God's image, period. To try to make the "us" and "our" mean angels is twisting scriptures.)

6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Comment: Christ plainly states He has seen the Father...

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

Comment: No one has seen the form of the Father. (Some try to use this to say that "no one" has heard the Father's voice, but this is referring to those Christ was speaking to).

Judges 13:22 And Manoah said to his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said to him, What says my lord to his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, Loose your shoe from off your foot; for the place whereon you stand [is] holy. And Joshua did so.

Exodus 3:3-6 "Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand [is] holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I [am] the God of your father -- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God."

Genesis 12:7 "Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him."

Genesis 32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Deuteronomy 5:22 "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me."

Comment: Seems like a few HAVE seen the Father...if it is believed that there is only one being.a

1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Comment: A "rock" that was there with Israel in the wilderness... named as Christ Himself...

1 Cor 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Comments: Ancient Israel in the wilderness... again... tempting Christ (if you read it in context), that spiritual rock...

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Comments: Same language as John 1... "word."

John 6:62 "[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?"

Ascend where He was before? Before what? Why speak in these terms if this isn't what was meant? Anyone could try to say that this means something else, but it says what it says.

John 13:3 "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God,"

John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."

John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Comment: Hard to dismiss, or accept as being a created being or "procreated" when He wants the glory He had before the world was created, long before He was supposedly created.

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

Comment: Come down from heaven... If Christ was created in Mary's womb, He didn't come down from anywhere.

John 8:42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

Christ is showing His individuality and will here.

Philippians 2:5-8 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross."

Comment: How does one who is nothing to begin with, created or procreated, "make Himself of no reputation?" You can't be nothing, then make yourself of no reputation...

Hebrews 2:14-17 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like to [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Comment: " behoved him to be made like to [his] brethren" Behooved who? Sounds like this being had a choice... willingness...

1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them (some ancient Israelites such as Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Caleb) did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Comment: Again... third reference to Christ being "in" those in the Old Testament...

1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached to the spirits (demons) in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Comment: Christ preaching to demons at the time of Noah?

John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Comment: Christ states He did not come of His own, but was sent. Both of these remarks suggest choice and decision of someone who existed at the time reference, and NOT of someone who was created.

John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and wither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and wither I go.

John 8:23 And he said to them, you are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Comments: Sounds like this person has memories of another life...

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, makest yourself God.

Comment: The Jews weren't stupid. They knew exactly what Christ was saying and what He meant when He said "I and my Father are one." Christ didn't dispute their belief...

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, you blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Comment: How can you be "sent" if you didn't even exist?

John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God."

Comment: Was Thomas delusional? Did Christ correct Him on this statement?

Rev 21:6 "And He said to me,"It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son."

Comment; This is directly speaking about Christ, and here He calls Himself "God."

Rev 22:8 "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. :9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."

Revelation 11:15-18 we read this: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshiped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

Comment; Here, it is speaking yet again of Christ and His reign over the nations, and calls Christ "Lord God Almighty" who would judge the nations. All judgment is given to Christ by the father, (John 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son...") so this must be speaking about Christ.

John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews to him, you art not yet fifty years old, and hast you seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

Comment: Christ was plainly using the "I am" (God) of the Old Testament in referring to Himself and the Jews immediately went to stone Him. Why? Was Jesus Christ mistaken in what He said?

John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus says to them, I am. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said to them, I am, they went backward, and fell to the ground. 7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am: if therefore you seek me, let these go their way:

Comment: I Am... before Abraham, and clearly referenced Himself as "I am" which is mentioned in Ex 3:14 "And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt you say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you."

Christ called Himself "I Am." What sleight of hand can we use to make this say something else?

Matt 21:13 And said to them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Comment: Whose house was it... The Father's house or Christ's? Seems presumptuous of Christ to say it that way if it is the Father's House He was referring to...

Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, you Jesus of Nazareth? art you come to destroy us? I know you who you art, the Holy One of God.

Acts 2:27 Because you wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt you suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

Acts 3:14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted to you;

Comments: Holy One... referenced in 31 places throughout the O.T. and 21 places in the New.

Holy One refers to God in the Old Testament, and to Christ directly in Psalms 16:10, and to Christ also in the NT. Why would they both be called by this "formal name?"

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Comment: Besides me there is no God... Elohiym - plural. There is no other Elohiym or God family/beings.

Isa 48:12 Hearken to me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying to me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 2:8 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things says the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Comment: God in the Old Testament calls Himself, "The First and the Last." Christ Himself calls Himself, "The First and the Last." Is this a slip of the tongue? Mistranslation? Is Christ, again assuming to take on Himself something the Father has?

1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Comments: Lord FROM Heaven...

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Comments: sent forth His son... from where? How do you send forth someone who doesn't exist as yet?

1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Comments: God our savior... and God and our savior... both in context, showing the context is the same person, Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The expression "God and our savior Jesus Christ" follows the same Greek grammatical construction used to express the deity of the Father in...

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

1 Thess 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Phil 4:20 Now to God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Comment: Are we talking about two distinct persons here... God, and the Father? The Greek in these scriptures is akin to a statement such as, "My wife and best friend." This is called hendiadies, meaning "one by two." An expression of an idea by two nouns rather than a noun and an adjunct. Both refer to each other equally, but not meaning two different persons.

You might like to know that the New Age (modern) translations leave out reference to (deny) the Deity of Christ over 100 times and even add words to Jude :15 to give the impression that Jesus is NOT God. Are you comfortable with that?

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like to his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Comments: He didn't take ON Him the nature of angels... sounds like more choice and someone who is aware... Behooved Him to be made like to His Brethren... It would do nothing to Him prior to His own creation. If He had no consciousness prior to His human birth, this statement is meaningless.

Heb 6:20 wither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like to the Son of God; abides a priest continually.

Comment: Who could possible fit this description except God? Made like the Son of God? Seems as though the Plan of Salvation is being referenced here, and Jesus Christ's role.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you wouldest not, but a body hast you prepared me:

Comments: The Father "prepared" a body for Christ (the word?)... How do you prepare a body for someone who doesn't exist, and have that person prophetically speak about having a body prepared for them?

Heb 1:8 But to the Son he says, your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.

Comment: The Father speaking to the Son, calling Him God...and

Heb 1:10 "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands."

Comment: Calling Him (Christ) Lord who created the earth.

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Comment: A scripture from John plainly stating that John understood Christ to be God.

Heb 1: Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Comment: God... manifest in the flesh. Does it become any more clear? God (the Word) manifested in the flesh...

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 John 1:2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew to you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested (in the flesh) to us;

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Luke 10:18 And he said to them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Comment: Who is speaking here, the Father who would have been the only one to see it since Christ hadn't even been "created" as yet, or Christ, who was speaking this of Himself?

There is no evidence to conclude that Christ witnessed Satan's fall in a vision.

And, for an Old Testament scripture which is very difficult to twist to mean one being...

Ps 110:1 The LORD said to my (David's) Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

LORD = OT:3068 Yehovah (yeh-ho-vaw'); from OT:1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: KJV - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare OT:3050, OT:3069.

Lord = OT:113 'adown (aw-done'); or (shortened) 'adon (aw-done'); from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine): KJV - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".

Notice the ALL CAPITAL, first "LORD," compared with the Capital "L" and lower case "ord" in the second "Lord?" While the "Lord" word can be used of humans, the scripture referencing David's "Lord" cannot be referring to a human because NO human will sit at the right had of the Father but Christ. Who else could be construed to be David's "Lord?" This is clear proof that two distinct beings are being discussed here, with the Father, the Ancient of days, speaking to Christ, the "Word," also Lord/God. David's "Lord" was Christ, the Word.

Is this referenced again, and whom is it speaking about, specifically?

Matt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44 "The LORD said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool'? 45 If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?' 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore."

Acts 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.' 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?

Matt 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." NIV

Mark 12:36 "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."' NIV

Mark 16:19 "After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God." NIV

These are but a few scriptures where Christ is mentioned as sitting at the "right hand" of the Father, so, he can't be somehow a part of "one" single being.

All the above N.T. scriptures clearly refer to Christ, the Son of God, who pre-existed His human birth, and was very active in O.T. times.

Notice, now, that there are two minds independent of each other, actually knowing or not knowing what the other knows...

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? :7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Can't have a single being made up of three "minds" and not knowing the other's thoughts or will...

These are not all the scriptures that reference Christ and His pre-existence, but the point should be clearly made... Christ DID pre-exist His incarnation as human. If you consider the few answers he gave that I felt were worth quoting, you will see that this is a stretch of scriptures and human reasoning on the subject of Christ.

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